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	<title>Comments on: Feminist Unschoolers to &#8220;Bitch&#8221;: We&#8217;re Here, Not Queer</title>
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	<link>http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2008/02/22/feminist-unschoolers-to-bitch-were-here-not-queer/</link>
	<description>Thinking Parents Refuse to Lose Those Head Games</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 01:15:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Is Turkey More Enlightened and Braver Than Our Shining Nation? &#171; Cocking A Snook!</title>
		<link>http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2008/02/22/feminist-unschoolers-to-bitch-were-here-not-queer/#comment-22321</link>
		<dc:creator>Is Turkey More Enlightened and Braver Than Our Shining Nation? &#171; Cocking A Snook!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 18:03:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/?p=885#comment-22321</guid>
		<description>[...] and publicly &#8220;educating&#8221; society on this modern scholarship, with the team of 450 women sent into the sparsely populated interior of the nation to teach a more socially responsive an..., that doesn&#8217;t really say women are inferior and made to submit to dominionists and abusers. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and publicly &#8220;educating&#8221; society on this modern scholarship, with the team of 450 women sent into the sparsely populated interior of the nation to teach a more socially responsive an&#8230;, that doesn&#8217;t really say women are inferior and made to submit to dominionists and abusers. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: NanceConfer</title>
		<link>http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2008/02/22/feminist-unschoolers-to-bitch-were-here-not-queer/#comment-22306</link>
		<dc:creator>NanceConfer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 13:55:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/?p=885#comment-22306</guid>
		<description>CW:
"What good does it do to nominally identify oneself with a particular faith if that faith plays no significant role in one’s life?"

And more people are realizing that, according to the poll. And feeling free to say so. Whatever social network held them in place before isn't working now. Which may be a good thing, in several ways.

JJ:
"The problem for the group isn’t so much the uncommitted but the committed who insist on seeing the same thing differently?"

And who insist that their way is the ONLY way. Committed and exclusionist -- great combination. 

Nance</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CW:<br />
&#8220;What good does it do to nominally identify oneself with a particular faith if that faith plays no significant role in one’s life?&#8221;</p>
<p>And more people are realizing that, according to the poll. And feeling free to say so. Whatever social network held them in place before isn&#8217;t working now. Which may be a good thing, in several ways.</p>
<p>JJ:<br />
&#8220;The problem for the group isn’t so much the uncommitted but the committed who insist on seeing the same thing differently?&#8221;</p>
<p>And who insist that their way is the ONLY way. Committed and exclusionist &#8212; great combination. </p>
<p>Nance</p>
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		<title>By: JJ</title>
		<link>http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2008/02/22/feminist-unschoolers-to-bitch-were-here-not-queer/#comment-22301</link>
		<dc:creator>JJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 03:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/?p=885#comment-22301</guid>
		<description>I was thinking about that with Bill Buckley this week, after hearing him explain in a 1989 interview how the self-defined role of his magazine was to serve as the guardians of what "conservatism" meant, against someone who could come along and put his mouth and money in a place he called conservative but that wasn't what THEY (BIll and his like-minded team) called conservative.  

That's where I think it all breaks down.  The problem for the group isn't so much the uncommitted but the committed who insist on  seeing the same thing differently?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was thinking about that with Bill Buckley this week, after hearing him explain in a 1989 interview how the self-defined role of his magazine was to serve as the guardians of what &#8220;conservatism&#8221; meant, against someone who could come along and put his mouth and money in a place he called conservative but that wasn&#8217;t what THEY (BIll and his like-minded team) called conservative.  </p>
<p>That&#8217;s where I think it all breaks down.  The problem for the group isn&#8217;t so much the uncommitted but the committed who insist on  seeing the same thing differently?</p>
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		<title>By: Crimson Wife</title>
		<link>http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2008/02/22/feminist-unschoolers-to-bitch-were-here-not-queer/#comment-22299</link>
		<dc:creator>Crimson Wife</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 01:47:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/?p=885#comment-22299</guid>
		<description>What's that old saying about the Church as a hospital for sinners rather than a museum for saints? I don't think only "perfect" Christians should be part of the Church. But I do think that Christianity ought to have some sort of tangible influence on the person's behavior. What good does it do to nominally identify oneself with a particular faith if that faith plays no significant role in one's life? It isn't a case of "be pure or get out" but rather of putting one's money (however small the amount) where one's mouth is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s that old saying about the Church as a hospital for sinners rather than a museum for saints? I don&#8217;t think only &#8220;perfect&#8221; Christians should be part of the Church. But I do think that Christianity ought to have some sort of tangible influence on the person&#8217;s behavior. What good does it do to nominally identify oneself with a particular faith if that faith plays no significant role in one&#8217;s life? It isn&#8217;t a case of &#8220;be pure or get out&#8221; but rather of putting one&#8217;s money (however small the amount) where one&#8217;s mouth is.</p>
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		<title>By: JJ</title>
		<link>http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2008/02/22/feminist-unschoolers-to-bitch-were-here-not-queer/#comment-22293</link>
		<dc:creator>JJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 20:41:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/?p=885#comment-22293</guid>
		<description>Good application.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good application.  <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: NanceConfer</title>
		<link>http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2008/02/22/feminist-unschoolers-to-bitch-were-here-not-queer/#comment-22291</link>
		<dc:creator>NanceConfer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 18:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/?p=885#comment-22291</guid>
		<description>Right, same mechanism, different level of threat, different levels of power. 

And then there's the fellow on our state's test reform list asking me to explain (I heard "justify") unschooling. 

Now, he's on the list as someone working to get away from abuse of/by standardized testing.

So am I.

And he saw a friendly face to ask about something that's been bothering him -- what's with this "unschooling?" 

My polite social impulse was to explain, in boring detail, how we live as unschoolers. But I then felt put upon that he was asking me to justify my choice (whether he was or not). So I gave him some links, hiding behind the social nicety that it wasn't really the topic of that list to discuss unschooling. 

You'd think we'd be on the same side in any discussion about unschooling. I would think so, anyway. But maybe not. Maybe his level of threat is set at "tests are bad for kids in school but, darn it, they should be in school" and mine is set at "not mine."

A stranger would see potential allies but we could easily get diverted from our test reform task with a disagreement about schools and schooling.

It's the point where "more freedom for everyone" becomes "too much freedom for the other guy" where we would butt heads. And our little social network would stop producing good results.

Nance</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, same mechanism, different level of threat, different levels of power. </p>
<p>And then there&#8217;s the fellow on our state&#8217;s test reform list asking me to explain (I heard &#8220;justify&#8221 <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> unschooling. </p>
<p>Now, he&#8217;s on the list as someone working to get away from abuse of/by standardized testing.</p>
<p>So am I.</p>
<p>And he saw a friendly face to ask about something that&#8217;s been bothering him &#8212; what&#8217;s with this &#8220;unschooling?&#8221; </p>
<p>My polite social impulse was to explain, in boring detail, how we live as unschoolers. But I then felt put upon that he was asking me to justify my choice (whether he was or not). So I gave him some links, hiding behind the social nicety that it wasn&#8217;t really the topic of that list to discuss unschooling. </p>
<p>You&#8217;d think we&#8217;d be on the same side in any discussion about unschooling. I would think so, anyway. But maybe not. Maybe his level of threat is set at &#8220;tests are bad for kids in school but, darn it, they should be in school&#8221; and mine is set at &#8220;not mine.&#8221;</p>
<p>A stranger would see potential allies but we could easily get diverted from our test reform task with a disagreement about schools and schooling.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the point where &#8220;more freedom for everyone&#8221; becomes &#8220;too much freedom for the other guy&#8221; where we would butt heads. And our little social network would stop producing good results.</p>
<p>Nance</p>
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		<title>By: JJ</title>
		<link>http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2008/02/22/feminist-unschoolers-to-bitch-were-here-not-queer/#comment-22290</link>
		<dc:creator>JJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:51:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/?p=885#comment-22290</guid>
		<description>Me too -- and tell me what to think and believe and which words I can or can't use, what my social obligations are, etc,  much less who I am or cannot be depending on whether I go along.

(You're right about the baby shower not being the same magnitude of pressure or problem, of course.  But the same basic social-network mechanism is what's creating both the reality and the perceptions we all have to live with.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Me too &#8212; and tell me what to think and believe and which words I can or can&#8217;t use, what my social obligations are, etc,  much less who I am or cannot be depending on whether I go along.</p>
<p>(You&#8217;re right about the baby shower not being the same magnitude of pressure or problem, of course.  But the same basic social-network mechanism is what&#8217;s creating both the reality and the perceptions we all have to live with.)</p>
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		<title>By: NanceConfer</title>
		<link>http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2008/02/22/feminist-unschoolers-to-bitch-were-here-not-queer/#comment-22289</link>
		<dc:creator>NanceConfer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:02:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/?p=885#comment-22289</guid>
		<description>Which is exactly how I see their belligerent and self-righteous “feminist” prejudice against homeschool moms, especially those of us who are in fact just as feminist and humanist as they consider themselves (if not more so) and have been at it a lot longer!

*********

But wasn't the thrust of the anti-hsing argument that it was for our own good? 

Much like some pro-ps arguments.

And like some definers of hsing.

I wish people would stop trying to save me.

Nance</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which is exactly how I see their belligerent and self-righteous “feminist” prejudice against homeschool moms, especially those of us who are in fact just as feminist and humanist as they consider themselves (if not more so) and have been at it a lot longer!</p>
<p>*********</p>
<p>But wasn&#8217;t the thrust of the anti-hsing argument that it was for our own good? </p>
<p>Much like some pro-ps arguments.</p>
<p>And like some definers of hsing.</p>
<p>I wish people would stop trying to save me.</p>
<p>Nance</p>
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		<title>By: NanceConfer</title>
		<link>http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2008/02/22/feminist-unschoolers-to-bitch-were-here-not-queer/#comment-22288</link>
		<dc:creator>NanceConfer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/?p=885#comment-22288</guid>
		<description>That works passably well for congregational types I suppose, like the Texas megachurch believers all agreeing in their belief that women must submit to men in all things, but it makes the truly independent individualists among us INSANE.

***********

I always wonder about that. Of course. Picturing the young wife who wonders what the heck the doofus she married thinks he is doing. And he's in charge? 

Maybe those are the ones who leave. Or quietly do go insane until they start enjoying their 2nd Amendment freedom.

Nance</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That works passably well for congregational types I suppose, like the Texas megachurch believers all agreeing in their belief that women must submit to men in all things, but it makes the truly independent individualists among us INSANE.</p>
<p>***********</p>
<p>I always wonder about that. Of course. Picturing the young wife who wonders what the heck the doofus she married thinks he is doing. And he&#8217;s in charge? </p>
<p>Maybe those are the ones who leave. Or quietly do go insane until they start enjoying their 2nd Amendment freedom.</p>
<p>Nance</p>
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		<title>By: NanceConfer</title>
		<link>http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2008/02/22/feminist-unschoolers-to-bitch-were-here-not-queer/#comment-22287</link>
		<dc:creator>NanceConfer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:55:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/?p=885#comment-22287</guid>
		<description>She can’t just “leave” because it’s her work, important to her life,

*******

And she's not actually under any sort of threat of physical violence. Or any other kind -- unless her tender psyche can't survive a bow covered plate hat.

Unlike the kid trapped in a damaging school situation.

And, if she were somehow being threatened, she could leave.

Nance</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>She can’t just “leave” because it’s her work, important to her life,</p>
<p>*******</p>
<p>And she&#8217;s not actually under any sort of threat of physical violence. Or any other kind &#8212; unless her tender psyche can&#8217;t survive a bow covered plate hat.</p>
<p>Unlike the kid trapped in a damaging school situation.</p>
<p>And, if she were somehow being threatened, she could leave.</p>
<p>Nance</p>
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		<title>By: JJ</title>
		<link>http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2008/02/22/feminist-unschoolers-to-bitch-were-here-not-queer/#comment-22285</link>
		<dc:creator>JJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:24:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/?p=885#comment-22285</guid>
		<description>"Feministe" comment, about both posters and commenters at sites like Feministe and Pandagon having an all-too-familiar ideological blind spot of their own:
&lt;blockquote&gt; Until disability rights issues are raised, and it’s like … whoa, is this the twilight zone? What’s with the casual bigotry? the inability - the refusal? - to listen to the voices of people who are closest to the issues?  

The information-to-static ratio is all out of whack, with commenters I would like to call my allies not just implying but in some cases saying that I - and my clients, and my friends - are not fully human.

It’s like there’s this seemy underbelly of disability-based prejudice lurking within a good percentage of the commenters at these blogs. And, having read Lindsay’s take on the Ashley X case (as well as Amanda’s) - well, the folks writing the posts &lt;a href="http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/09/is-this-a-good-enough-reason-if-not-what-is/#comment-131400" rel="nofollow"&gt;aren’t always so prejudice-free themselves&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Which is exactly how I see their belligerent and self-righteous "feminist" prejudice against homeschool moms, especially those of us who are in fact just as feminist and humanist as they consider themselves (if not more so)  and have been at it a lot longer!  That's a disabling blind spot even the above poster seems "unable" to see.

This same thread about disability choice had a trackback from the same feminist (pronouncing why "we" needed compulsory public education) who took offense when I retorted "who's we, kemosabe?"  Apparently she is "brown" (her word, not mine) and thus felt justified in &lt;a href="http://magniloquence.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/who-are-you-talking-to/" rel="nofollow"&gt;changing the subject to her outrage over my free word choice, from my outrage over her government-backed overreach into my child's mind, values and future. . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Feministe&#8221; comment, about both posters and commenters at sites like Feministe and Pandagon having an all-too-familiar ideological blind spot of their own:</p>
<blockquote><p> Until disability rights issues are raised, and it’s like … whoa, is this the twilight zone? What’s with the casual bigotry? the inability - the refusal? - to listen to the voices of people who are closest to the issues?  </p>
<p>The information-to-static ratio is all out of whack, with commenters I would like to call my allies not just implying but in some cases saying that I - and my clients, and my friends - are not fully human.</p>
<p>It’s like there’s this seemy underbelly of disability-based prejudice lurking within a good percentage of the commenters at these blogs. And, having read Lindsay’s take on the Ashley X case (as well as Amanda’s) - well, the folks writing the posts <a href="http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/09/is-this-a-good-enough-reason-if-not-what-is/#comment-131400" rel="nofollow">aren’t always so prejudice-free themselves</a>.</p></blockquote>
<p>Which is exactly how I see their belligerent and self-righteous &#8220;feminist&#8221; prejudice against homeschool moms, especially those of us who are in fact just as feminist and humanist as they consider themselves (if not more so)  and have been at it a lot longer!  That&#8217;s a disabling blind spot even the above poster seems &#8220;unable&#8221; to see.</p>
<p>This same thread about disability choice had a trackback from the same feminist (pronouncing why &#8220;we&#8221; needed compulsory public education) who took offense when I retorted &#8220;who&#8217;s we, kemosabe?&#8221;  Apparently she is &#8220;brown&#8221; (her word, not mine) and thus felt justified in <a href="http://magniloquence.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/who-are-you-talking-to/" rel="nofollow">changing the subject to her outrage over my free word choice, from my outrage over her government-backed overreach into my child&#8217;s mind, values and future. . .</a></p>
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		<title>By: JJ</title>
		<link>http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2008/02/22/feminist-unschoolers-to-bitch-were-here-not-queer/#comment-22280</link>
		<dc:creator>JJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:05:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/?p=885#comment-22280</guid>
		<description>Remember the &lt;a href="http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/helping-the-sense-of-the-homeschool-conversation/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Tiny Cat Pants feminists&lt;/a&gt; patrolling their group's borders so fiercely, lumping all the rest of us together as the enemy?
Homeschool support is like that too.  That's just a fact.
All these social layers and trying to make each other conform or at least demur to the "group" even as we all sing the same song from the same hymnal in unison about our individual "independence" and diversity. And either not understanding it or just denying it to ourselves, even as we live it.  That works passably well for congregational types I suppose,  like the Texas megachurch believers all agreeing in their belief that women must submit to men in all things, but it makes the truly independent individualists among us INSANE.  ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Remember the <a href="http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/helping-the-sense-of-the-homeschool-conversation/" rel="nofollow">Tiny Cat Pants feminists</a> patrolling their group&#8217;s borders so fiercely, lumping all the rest of us together as the enemy?<br />
Homeschool support is like that too.  That&#8217;s just a fact.<br />
All these social layers and trying to make each other conform or at least demur to the &#8220;group&#8221; even as we all sing the same song from the same hymnal in unison about our individual &#8220;independence&#8221; and diversity. And either not understanding it or just denying it to ourselves, even as we live it.  That works passably well for congregational types I suppose,  like the Texas megachurch believers all agreeing in their belief that women must submit to men in all things, but it makes the truly independent individualists among us INSANE.  <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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