So a doctor is murdered. A doctor who helped many is gunned down by a madman.
And I tune into the progressive, liberal blog to get a good dose of “oh, isn’t that too bad” and I am hit with an argument about religion — Christ and Christianity and, finally, Satan.
Who is a real Christian and who is not and now Satan.
A crazed man posts his intentions online and follows through and the discussion is about mythology?
President Obama, could you hurry up on that business of bringing science and compassion back to this country? We need it!
Nance
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Sigh. I don’t agree with abortion. But, this was a tragedy. Taking this human life saves no other human lives. This was no solution, rather it was a great offense.
Talk about an unrepentant terrorist in America. Sean Hannity used that political phrase last year incessantly about William Ayers. Now he and his friends at FOX who teed up this brave and dedicated doctor (for women in reproductive crisis) for death threats, shooting, bombing and finally murder, need to apply it just as incessantly to the man who committed this act of terrorism — and to everyone who lived near him, belonged to the same church or education groups he did, or shared and sympathized with his politics. Assuming they plan to continue using that fair and balanced tagline.
Nance, I didn’t read the “pastordan” piece quite the way you did. What struck me was that he seems like a Christian openly trying to repudiate anti-woman fundamentalism in his faith, the way that Muslims need to keep doing:
“This is terrorism, plain and simple — Christian fundamentalist terrorism, committed by people Sam Smith has started referring to as “Jesus’s Jihadis.”
OTOH, I absolutely agree that to really value human life means we stop with the personal mysticism and mythology in the deadly real public sphere.
I would disagree strongly with your assertion that Dr. Tiller “helped many”. But I definitely do not believe in violence against abortionists. Especially gunning down someone in a church
It *IS* terrorism, even if I sympathize with the desire to stop Dr. Tiller from killing any more babies. The ends do not justify using immoral means.
It doesn’t matter that this murder happened in a church. It doesn’t even matter that the victim was a doctor who did, whether any of us want to think beyond the headlines, help many.
My point was that PastorDan and his Christian apologist line are just another part of the vast muddle of religion being used to justify or explain away inhumane and criminal behavior.
It makes no more sense to say there are good Christians and bad ones than it does to say that Satan did it. It’s all thinking based in make believe. Fantasy-fueled hate isn’t going to be addressed effectively by fantasy-fueled other stuff.
Nance
Thinking more about this:
“It makes no more sense to say there are good Christians and bad ones than it does to say that Satan did it. ”
Yes, in the same way it doesn’t make sense toward actually solving some social horror to say there are good men and bad ones, good whites and bad ones, good immigrants and bad ones, or good schoolteachers and bad ones, etc. It is a true statement but it doesn’t help and might even get in the way of addressing what’s really wrong.
I read something about what doing it in church has always had to with this kind of political violence — it’s a warning to the rest of the religious folks that they’d better shape up. Sometimes it backfires when eyes of the faithful are opened.
Finally, remember that report about right-wing religious terrorism recruiting domestically, the one Christian conservatives were oh so outraged about, even though it was about right-wing extremists, not necessarily Christians or even conservatives? Then they chose to align themselves with the terrorists and say the report was smearing THEM. Now they choose to say they’ve got nothing to do with this? Getting intellectual honesty into the mix might require what Nance is talking about — reality-based thinking.
Time To Revisit Criticism Of DHS Report On “Right Wing Extremists”?
Great metaphor, JJ. Despite their denials of responsibility, social conservatives “tee up” scapegoats who *consequently* become victims of violence. Teeing up “abortionists” make these killings probable; teeing up “sodomites” make murders of men like Matthew Shepard probable; teeing up atheists make…?
I just heard on cable news that Randall Terry not only teed up the doctor before but told the National Press Club today after his assassination in church, that the doctor had been a mass murderer on par with Hitler and was reaping what he had sown.
Bill O’Reilly was complicit in that teeing up, having crusaded — and that is the right word! — against Tiller by name on-air 29 times since 2005, including accusing him of “Nazi stuff.”
But some anti-abortion woman is on MSNBC right now denying that anyone in her “movement” thinks that and it’s being universally condemned as a crime, with peaceful prayers for his family. I might have been more prone to believe her or at least believe SHE believes it, except that the first thing she said was “Doctor Killer, oops, I mean Tiller” . . .
Kathleen Sebelius former governor of KS, now the federal HHS secretary, shared politics with this KS doctor and received campaign contributions from him over the years. She could have been the victim this time; will she be the target next time? Especially as a pro-woman’s health Roman Catholic. . .
Here’s part of her wikipedia page:
The “bad” guys teeing up the out groups and the “good” guys hiding behind the accepted magical thinking. At least Holder has ordered more protection for doctors and others. The religious community seems unable to think about this in a helpful way.
Nance
I agree!
And so many have called it a “tragedy” instead of “terrorism” including Sarah Palin’s official statement, that I went to look up that word’s power of story, all the way back to Aristotle so that constructionists and literalists won’t have complaint. The sources I reviewed all said both ancient and modern defined tragedy as “an IMITATION of an action” for dramatic purposes.
Actual murder is real violent crime, in this case horrific hate crime. Hiding behind the church for justification makes it religious terrorism. I see nothing that would elevate this crime or other actual hate crimes to the level of artistic power of story with universal meaning, including other people’s religious beliefs. In that, I guess I am with Nance.
Since Hitler has already been brought into this by Randall Terry, it can’t inflame things any further to observe that the KKK hid behind Christian morality (and nobly protecting the flower of womanhood) for its organized hate crimes slash terrorism against out groups, too.
JJ, hadn’t really thought of the word in that sense. I meant that this was a tragedy for his family. And, I can only believe that it IS that dramatic for them.
I wrote a blog post several months ago about my stance on abortion. It was blantently anti-abortion. I did, jokingly (I thought), make the caveat that I did not march in parades or blow up buildings. I had a jerk tell me that I needed to repent for not doing so, and tell me that I was going to hell.
Well, I already knew I was going to hell, so that didn’t really bother me.
Anyway, my stance on stopping abortion is this: I believe that abortion is wrong in almost all cases. However, I do not believe that killin people, or even making abortion illegal is going to stop abortion. I believe that the only way abortion will ever stop (and I don’t truly believe it will. It has been around since the beginning, but I do believe it can be lessened) is for people value human life, more than they consider it a burden. This cannot be done through parades, protests, leaflets, or legislation. This can only be done through a change of philosophy. And, as the old saying goes (can’t remember who said it), “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.”
O’Reilly’s campaign against murdered doctor in Salon magazine today:
Or to live?
O’Reilly like Kristina doesn’t march in parades (I don’t think) or blow up buildings himself. He just lets the people decide and washes his hands of it (like Pontius Pilate?)
Kristina, you’re in broad company using the word “tragedy” instead of terrorism; that’s all I was trying to say.
Chris Matthews did it closing his Hardball segment on Tiller’s murder, too. And his discussion of it focused on something he sees as a sign things might be getting better rather than worse on this issue. He’s considering the Right’s condemnation response to reflect that most don’t LITERALLY believe the doctor was a murderer, and that perhaps that’s a concession of sorts to the difficulty of these real-life cases, that people of good will can build on together.
******
Speaking of what we mean by our words, Spunky has a big thread about government standards being imposed on her kids (education choice.) She used some choice words that fit Tiller imo, without realizing it. She won’t realize it now either, will probably just say I’m being insulting or something, but I meant it most sincerely:
JJ: “She used some choice words that… without realizing it…”
Seriously, she should really spend more time proofreading. The sanctimonious tone over there is so provocatory; the arguments, no matter how contradictory and illogical, shift and morph constantly in response to critique. For me, commenting has become almost a morose form of entertainment; I may need a 12-step program to get me back to normal.
SO she just said it was off-topic. Thus indeed missing the point that it’s the SAME topic. (She started the original post calling to “any free-thinking, freedom loving American” — freethinking is a term *I* get to claim by history and power of story, not fundamentalists.)
I fear it’s what Nance has been saying: it’s what happens when you (like Sarah Palin) decide your particular religious beliefs are Truth no matter what, and that everything is about religion from the grocery list to kissing to tv and medicine, so whatever you choose to feel “it” wants of you at any given moment or on any given topic, is absolute and beyond any need to make human sense. By definition.
Substitute “any” for “your” and that may start to explain what I have been thinking.
When our thinking is grounded in unreality, where does that lead? Whether we pat ourselves on the back that we are the “good” ones or not.
Spunky is beyond any sort of reasoning. And is really boring in her sameness to me now — yes, everything, literally everything, is about her religion.
But how different from other believers is she? How do we function in a world that is dominated by sentiments like praying for the dead man’s family as any sort of real answer? Not well.
And I’m not explaining it well. But, as an outsider, accepting some of the religious stuff and denouncing the other stuff is like trying to figure out the differences between Lutherans and Baptists. From out here, it doesn’t matter. It’s all on a spectrum from unhelpful to downright dangerous in trying to function in the real world.
I end up wondering why this isn’t a wake up call to the religious.
Nance
Rachel Maddow had Frank Schaeffer (author of Crazy for God) on tonight, did you see? He sounded that wake-up call loud and clear, I thought.
He said there was a direct line between Dr. Tiller’s murder and the coded speech he and his religious right leaders used to inflame anti-abortion passions back in the 70s and 80s. Here’s his Huff Post column which is similar to his tv apology for his part in the consequence of those hateful words:
Contrast that with O’Reilly tonight and see which you find more morally responsible (as a good American and decent human being, never mind religion):
Rachel Maddow had Frank Schaeffer (author of Crazy for God) on tonight, did you see? He sounded that wake-up call loud and clear, I thought.
I appreciated what Schaeffer had to say, too. And, it tied in nicely with this post, I thought. Hopefully, Schaeffer’s warnings about incendiary, anti-Obama rhetoric (the Communist, the Secret Islamicist, the Antichrist, the Dear One) won’t prove prophetic.
Fundamentalist Christian leaders really do play the rank-and-file for fools. Talking points are dutifully memorized and recited (proselytization=academic freedom; Darwinism=religion; founding fathers=Christians…) without any awareness of larger underlying purposes (Wedge Strategy, Wedge Strategy, Wedge Strategy).
Outright Barbarous: How the Violent Language of the Right Poisons American Democracy
I do believe that Dr. Tiller was literally a murderer, but I don’t believe in the death penalty for murderers. Especially not a vigilante killing like this one without any kind of legal due process.
The biggest tragedy to my mind is that this assassination might very well inspire some misguided young person (or worse multiple people) to follow in Dr. Tiller’s footsteps and become an abortionist. Dr. Tiller was 67 and presumably nearing the end of his career. But it could like Hercules vs. the Hydra, where taking out one actually makes the situation worse…
From your mouth to . . . well, you know the rest.
It is increasingly difficult for women to get the medical services they need and if this inspires a new generation to have the courage to fight the anti-choice machine, that would be a wonderful outcome!
Nance
Only a minuscule fraction of the abortions performed in this country are done in order to save the mom’s life (the only kind that could be legitimately argued as being truly necessary). All the others are elective procedures.
A big part of the problem in our society is the confusion of “wants” and “needs” (and this goes for all sorts of things). A woman may want an abortion for any number of reasons, some more understandable than others (i.e. a rape victim vs. a woman who merely finds the pregnancy inconvenient). Hardly ever does she, in fact, need one.
In your opinion.
And as long as you don’t have the legal right to impose that opinion on me, that’s fine.
Because I don’t agree that only life-threatening cases that require a mercy abortion are justifiable.
And that’s the point of “choice.” You get to make yours and I get to make mine. Based on our deeply-personal convictions. Yours do not trump mine and mine do not trump yours.
But the lack of medical care for women is a back door way to impose your views on others. It is a national shame.
Nance
That’s your idea of tragedy, CW, that fundamentalist terrorism won’t succeed in destroying American liberty?
The real question is, do we really “believe” in the rule of constitutional law and its power over life and death in America? Our individual liberties, rights and responsibilities? Not sharia law or medieval law or civil war or Vatican rule — American secular justice. Murder is a legal term, not a religious belief and hate speech calling your fellow citizens criminals to incite violence against them (even if you believe god wants you to do it) is itself illegal, not protected speech.
CW, your “want or need” description of abortion as elective, like ear piercing or a boob job, is actually more true of having a child — today choosing to giving birth in America is literally, medically, morally, logically, emotionally a choice that each female gets to make privately, in our own “pursuit of life, liberty and happiness” and without interference from Church or State.
A big part of the problem in our society is people whose supernatural beliefs confuse the phrase “choose life” as not being a choice at all but a divine mandate (womandate?) In reality, choosing to have a baby is the elective procedure! Giving birth is a choice, choosing life for mother AND child, not slavery, duty risking death, not Christian robot control as even Randall Terry addressing the National Press Club admitted was impossible.
Hardly ever does she, in fact, need a baby!
Morally, legally and scientifically, it is a choice and based on want, not need. Personally choosing to give and nurture new life — or not! — is individual liberty/responsibility worthy of our self-governing nation, not to be infringed by terrorism to impose patriarchal theocracy.
A woman may want a baby for any number of reasons, some more understandable than others (i.e. mature love in a stable relationship vs. a delusional young girl or cult/political prisoner.)
Late-term abortion is the opposite, when all the choices have narrowed down to desperately grim life-and-health threatening need. No one chooses or “wants” any part of that; it is indeed tragedy.
Jack the Ripper comes to mind.
Not to condone murder, but prostitution IS a sin and must be stopped.
(And I guess Jack was even more justified than Dr. Tiller’s murderer, because unlike abortion, prostitution is actually illegal?)
A woman *DOES* have a choice about having a baby- she can choose whether or not to have sex. No one truly needs to have sex (regardless of what many men would have us women believe, LOL!) If a woman wants to have sex, then she needs to be prepared for the possible consequence of pregnancy. Post-conception, the baby’s right to life trumps the mother’s desire to not be pregnant.
No, sex also is another choice, often related but not the same choice as wanting a baby and giving birth.
I know we disagree strongly on this, but my legal right to decide in my family trumps yours to decide for us. And I don’t get to decide quiverfull moms have had too many [or incite violence against them to get them to stop.]
Military professionals like doctors, deal (legally) in life and death; they are heroes to some, murderers to others, sometimes even targets. That’s all crazy-making enough without mixing in religion — Nance’s point, I think. (see Dale’s latest post at Parenting Beyond Belief for better news when religion stays out of political conflict.)
So on two consecutive days we have the shooting of a doctor and the shooting of a soldier, both with hyper-politicized religion as the rationale. Are these events different in any important way, other than whose sympathies each will more readily arouse?
Then there’s the literally combined military-medical shooting a few weeks ago:
– Army Maj. Matthew P. Houseal, 54, of Amarillo, Texas, assigned to the 55th Medical Company in Indianapolis.
– Navy Cmdr. Charles K. Springle, 52, of Wilmington, N.C., assigned to the 55th Medical Company, Camp Liberty.
Why hasn’t there been more coverage of this incident of the soldier being shot? It seems to me it was a tiny blip on the news coverage.
Nance
Maybe because there’s no violence-inciting left-equivalents of Randall Terry, telling the National Press Club how war is against Christ’s peace plan so shooting soldiers is the death they deserve as profiteering mass murderers, and assassination while sad at least stops their killing of innocents?
OTOH, get this: even though it involved no acknowledgment of her own hate-pandering to the weak-minded for political gain (much less repenting it as Frank Shaeffer did) nor with any real understanding of how religious “belief” serves such zealotry, nevertheless Sarah Palin of all people (or someone smart on her staff) did publicly make the connection:
Here’s her statement:
My right wing friends tell me the press is complicit with Obama in downplaying and covering up yet another example of Muslim aggression against the US.
Hmmm, maybe the talking points are delayed getting to Alaska?
Palin and staff have a very confusing way of speaking. “Dissention?” “Rage and death?” Did she mean “dissent?” DIssention works but sounds odd. Did she mean “death” or “murder?” Death doesn’t really fit.
Anyway, at least she made some connection and that’s more than can be said for the MSM, apparently.
Although I’m sure President Obama has better things to do than dictate coverage to the news outlets. For instance, he seems to be on a little trip speaking to some Muslims right now.
Nance
His religious speech today is a great connection, imo.
He completely gets that all sorts of human suffering and death gets caused by irreconcilable religious beliefs, and that you cannot reason people like Palin or the Pope (or even SCOTUS justices, it seems) out of those beliefs, and you can’t suppress and regulate them away or submit to them for the sake of peace, without destroying your own lives and liberties. Nor can we keep fighting and torturing each other until the religious wars are over, because no final victory will ever be possible. Religious violence will never stop by one side finally “winning.” So what you do? President Obama’s answer seems to be that first you stop digging the graves and find a way to talk about religion that is actually pro-LIFE in all its highest and best humanity.
Like Nance, it isn’t my usual way of speaking and thinking, in religious terms. But I can translate in a pinch and get by. And Obama is brilliant at it. The power of story is not just in how he speaks in many languages but the fluent thinking behind it, and the thinking behind it is what makes it so superior to Palin and RNC (Rush, Newt, Cheney) speech.
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