Why Germany and Homeschooling Don’t Mix

5 04 2009

If you’ve been following the HSLDA-World Net Daily campaign against the German view of homeschooling as socially dangerous deviation from the public interest, you might want to read this for context:

The Lines a German Won’t Cross

. . .In most daily interactions, the Germans do not need anyone to enforce their rules. They follow them — and remind one another to follow them through impromptu lectures that are often heated — because they are raised to know that is what they are supposed to do.

What the Germans call Ordnung . . . is the unwritten road map of one society’s concerted effort to permanently banish the instability and violence that have marked its history.

. . .For self-reliant Americans, the German devotion to all manner of precise rules and regulations is impressive and stifling in equal measures.

So I can easily see why Germany and home education don’t mix. What I don’t understand so easily, is why the same conservative politics so angry about enforced norms and government rules in Germany, want more duty and rules and uniforms and law enforcement here in America.

Gun-toting conservative white women for example, who think of themselves as homeschooling and tea party redux rebels, constitutional freedom fighters in a persecuted minority AND as conservers of one nation under only one tradition, a culture of hierarchy, standards, definitions, rules and obedience to authority, crime and punishment, child-beating — even torture if the official rules can somehow stretch to justify it.

Take one of the “fightin’ mad white women” I mentioned in that earlier post, who poses with a handgun for her blog’s homepage and has decided to model nude for meat-eating against PETA. [ed. note — the latter was an April Fool’s joke according to comments below]

Suddenly she sounds more like obedient German rule-followers and social norm enforcers, as she mocks the experimental movement of “consensual living” as dangerous social deviance. [ed. note — NOT an April Fool’s joke] Her world view is that children must shut up and obey blindly in all matters, or else be punished repeatedly to show ’em who’s boss:
See Raising a Whole New Generation of Spoiled, Rotten Brats.

This self-proclaimed parenting expert doesn’t seem to have any actual children of her own; she’s about 24 years old and still maturing herself from what I can read, with plenty of room for it! . . .wonder if she packs a personal taser as well as that handgun, when she’s working with toddlers and teens here in my state, with that Germanic attitude?

And I can’t help but wonder what the American parents of those children whatever their personal politics, will think of Miss Cassy’s nude ad campaign for a political cause — do you think it’s more likely they’ll decide she wasn’t punished enough as a child, or perhaps wasn’t respected enough and helped to make her own better decisions with more enlightened parental thinking than brute force to help her?

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38 responses

5 04 2009
Cassy

Way to read well, buddy. The “nude ad campaign” you’re referencing was an APRIL FOOL’S DAY JOKE. The organization I named on my website was COMPLETELY MADE UP, which you probably could have figured out on your own by either 1.) actually reading my blog or 2.) taking two seconds to use Google. Good researching, buddy. Way to go.

And to get on topic… of course, how one raises their children is completely up to them. It doesn’t mean that they don’t get to be ridiculed for it. If you feel that your two-year-old should be as much of an authority in your home as you, the adult, are, then good for you. Just don’t complain when that two-year-old grows up to be a spoiled brat of monster proportions who doesn’t respect you at all.

And as for the gun you like to mention so much? It’s not my gun. It’s a friend’s. I liked the picture, so I used it. I don’t actually own a handgun. Again, if you actually read my blog on a regular basis or did more than a cursory scan of it to try to find material to use against conservatives, you might know that. That’s not to say that I don’t want to own a handgun, just that I don’t currently own one. Again, good researching buddy.

But hey, you’re so intellectually and morally superior than I am, I guess you don’t need to bother with little things like research, do you?

5 04 2009
Cassy

I’m also curious to see if these comments actually are allowed to stand, for your readers to see, or if you will simply delete them. I’m kind of leaning towards you deleting them.

5 04 2009
boremetotears

So I can easily see why Germany and home education don’t mix.

Given the historical context, it seems pretty understandable to me, too. Rants about Germany’s hs laws are almost too painful to read for their authors’ refusal to acknowledge and address context. The threat of dangerous parallelgesellschaften (parallel societies).

5 04 2009
JJ

To Cassy from JJ (a 50-something mom and former Florida DOE education policy official with a daughter almost your age, so not “buddy” online or off no matter how many times you repeat it) —

Okay, the nude modeling part was an April Fool’s joke. Anything else you want to withdraw or correct, that I may have misunderstood?

5 04 2009
JJ

One thing we agree on though — no need to do much research “trying to find material to use against conservatives” these days! 😉

So many stories, so little time.

5 04 2009
JJ

When and if Cassy calms down and recovers some semblance of civil discourse rather than mere sputtering, here’s something related to German-American history differences that I’d actually like to have her conservative take on, particularly as someone working with children and advising parents on how best to prepare them as good citizens:

Lessons of Freedom Learned Best IN Freedom

History lessons are about human values and Power of Story.

What about Thinking Parents who believe the biggest lesson of history is that standardized schoolish ways don’t work for teaching courage and character or even the overthrow of tyranny, that today’s school system is contradictory to the very values it’s meant to teach — that the leaders most worth learning about, were individuals who diverged from the path others would have chosen for them?

What if we believe well-educated citizens determined to remain free are inspired from within by a muse, a cause, a passion they’ve discovered within and defined for themselves — and that to be worth fighting for, any cause we choose had better be important enough to sustain our individual souls in the face of all odds and even tyranny?

What if freedom is a history lesson only those free to learn can possibly learn?

5 04 2009
JJ

Hi Lynn, it’s so strange to remember that when families like mine and Nance’s started homeschooling in Florida 15 years ago or more, the nice conservative homeschool moms were just like good Germans! Sticklers for compliance and conformity, always preaching the virtues of hard work for both moms and kids. They insisted everyone’s homeschool freedoms would be jeopardized if any of us dared deviate from the (in truth overcompliant) forms and group memberships they had established, that regulation and compliance was a GOOD thing because it kept out all the riff-raff and coattail homeschoolers who would give us all a bad name, you know, because they really just wanted an excuse to be lazy and to get out of helping their children with homework, etc etc.

So — is that authoritarian conservative or radically libertarian? More American or more German? It just doesn’t make sense to me either way.

5 04 2009
boremetotears

I wonder if German homeschoolers are over-represented by dominion-seeking, militaristic types as they are here. If so, maybe it just boils down to how each country responds to it’s tea party rebels. Here, they’re sideshow entertainment; there, they’re reminders (remnants) of the country’s recent fascist past.

btw,… Cassy’s take on parenting reminds me of rhetoric you’d hear from “Doctor Laura.” In turn, Parent Laura reminds me of her spoiled rotten son, Deryk.

Deryk’s (abruptly pulled) MySpace page “included cartoon depictions of rape, murder, torture and child molestation; photographs of soldiers with guns in their mouths; a photograph of a bound and blindfolded detainee captioned ‘My Sweet Little Habib’; accounts of illicit drug use; and a blog entry headlined by a series of obscenities and racial epithets. ”

“Yes . . . F—ING Yes!!!” said one blog entry on the Schlessinger site. “I LOVE MY JOB, it takes everything reckless and deviant and heathenistic and just overall bad about me and hyper focuses these traits into my job of running around this horrid place doing nasty things to people that deserve it . . . and some that don’t.”
[source]

5 04 2009
Nance Confer

I think I will take a lesson from Cassy the Angry.

I will look for a photo and prominently display it on the blog here and elsewhere. I will make sure that it is in some way provocative — the saucier, the better. Heck, I could pick up on the Rude Pundit’s latest missive about Glenn Beck’s insane mashing together of Obama and other pols with a “Springtime for Hitler” poster. It makes no sense whatsoever but that would be the point.

I’d post it and then act all outraged when anyone associated me with it!

Or maybe not. Maybe I will try to use this blog and my time for something that is actually positive.

Now, where were we? Miss Cassy is going to train up my kids? Seems to me she better just stick with getting that North Korea thing straightened out. She’s an expert on that too.

Nance

5 04 2009
JJ

Lynn, where DO you get these stories?? 😀

5 04 2009
JJ

Nance, it should be personal instead of just generally political, maybe a photo of you threatening a cowering child with a stick, or a taser — that would certainly provoke outrage you could then disclaim . . .

5 04 2009
JJ

Favorite Daughter came in from her weekend and pointed out there’s a story about Paris DisneyWorld, about how the staff loves Americans there because they can simply put down a piece of tape on a path and American tourists will stand behind it in a crowd waiting (for a parade or a kingdom to open) whereas the French will sneer and overrun not just the mark but the authorities if need be! — possibly light a few tires on fire for good measure as they rampage in . . .so again, the cultural contexts are relative and significant to understanding what is rebellion and what is regulation. We may be more deviant and individualistic-insistent than the Germans but apparently to the French, we look like easily managed sheep and appreciative of law and order . . .

5 04 2009
Dana

Personally, I think the whole appeal to “Ordnung” is the oversimplification of someone applying stereotypes to explain something in as derogatory a way as possible. After all, Germany’s aggressive pursuit of homeschoolers in some cases makes less sense. From a country so averse to putting women in prison and that comes up with so many ways to keep anyone out of prison…right down to state run drug rooms to make sure that addicts have a clean and safe place to get high on heroine…you’d think they’d come up with some middle ground for the homeschoolers.

The R. case is interesting to me because I’ve been following it since the beginning, but also because of the changing tone of the German press. There are a lot more people questioning whether the state really needs to go to these extremes to control homeschooling, including a few politicians. I’m sure they are years away from any real solution that would make homeschoolers happy, but the Germans I know like watching police storm into homes less than petty bumps against their “Ordnung.”

& I doubt WND bothers to report this, but compulsory education laws in Germany trace their roots back to Martin Luther. They’re quick to point out that our system is modeled after the Prussian system, but they seem to forget that when they are talking about their system. Somehow it only goes back to the 30’s.

5 04 2009
Dana

OH, and no, they aren’t all religious nuts. They just seem to be the ones dragged into the press. All but one of the German homeschoolers I’ve actually corresponded with have been areligious and the other was rather mainstream…far from the fringe.

The group that made big news awhile back (the Paderborner Baptists) had a lot to do with the fact the group was from the former Soviet Union…part of why they were so heatedly stubborn. And a good deal of the homeschoolers actually are foreigners which probably doesn’t help much. They are “other” in every sense of the word.

5 04 2009
Dana

Back again. 🙂 One judge early in this case did not even buy that the family educated at home for religious reasons.

“Ich habe den Eindruck, dass es Ihnen vielmehr darum geht, eine bessere Schulform durchzusetzen”, hielt das Gericht dem Ehepaar vor. “Dass das Schulsystem Mängel hat, ist uns allen klar. Aber das ist kein religiöser Gewissenskonflikt.”

My translation: “I am under the impression that it has far more to do with desiring a better form of education,” the court reproached the couple, “That the school system is lacking is known to all. But that is no religious consciousness issue.”

They also rejected formal curriculum, referring to lesson plans as “one of the biggest catastrophes of public education.” That also didn’t score many points with the judges.

http://www.spiegel.de/schulspiegel/0,1518,401569,00.html

5 04 2009
boremetotears

Dana:

OH, and no, they aren’t all religious nuts. They just seem to be the ones dragged into the press. All but one of the German homeschoolers I’ve actually corresponded with have been areligious and the other was rather mainstream…far from the fringe.

Darn. Another unfounded, unresearched opinion of mine up in smoke.

5 04 2009
JJ

Good point, Dana, I’ll bet! — which makes it more rather than less confusing though:

. . .”the Germans I know like watching police storm into homes less than petty bumps against their “Ordnung.””

6 04 2009
JJ

Whether it manifests as religious or educational or economic philosophy, aren’t we really talking about the pros and cons of cultural diversity, and how much society can benefit from it, before it begins to sabotage itself with it? Every society. Any society.

For example, we’ve heard so much about how this economic collapse came from completely uncoupling capitalism from all social responsibility and prudent rules, just letting it run wild until it destroyed itself and us along with it.

Would complete unfettering of education have the same effect? I can see how conservatives would worry about that. Take the way Cassy talks about my children being radically unschooled (I would be on the asylum-seeking family’s side about formal lesson plans and curriculum, as Dana mentioned above) and thus becoming “monsters” and “spoiled rotten brats” —

But then, why isn’t that philosophy on the German government’s side when it comes to home education??

Religion rather than education seems like the obvious and only possible reason, if indeed this philosophy prefers authoritarian schooling for homogeneous communities but doesn’t want godless government running it. Same philosophy, just different authority.

And what about the second amendment here at home? Conservatives not only support but demand radical unfettering no matter the demented excess it breeds, no matter the social cost to us all (how many dead just this week, all over the country, from handguns, talk about monsters!)

And what about the complete unfettering of corrupt preachers from prudent rules and social responsibility, child abusers and molesters hidden by churches and cults, women subjugated by lack of education and broodmare childbearing, the vast financial and tax fraud, the undermining of our constitutional liberties and scientific research, our courts and current president and health of the planet itself, all in the name of completely “free” religious philosophy immune from public boundaries to prevent it destroying our abililty to self-govern IN freedom.

6 04 2009
JJ

In AP’s story describing the German homeschoolers’ appeal for asylum in Tennessee last week, one thing jumped out at me in the larger context of both German culture and evangelical culture:

“Other schoolbooks taught disrespect of authority figures. . .”

But wait, it’s those very authority figures (of the secular State and his fellow citizens) that this father is resisting at all costs! He says he believes in respect for authority figures being taught to all children, and he presumably believes social order will benefit from institutional rules and escalating punishments to teach and reinforce obedience to authority — yet he then rejects both for his own family and flees to America, where disrespect for authority is an art form even evangelicals are embracing, now that Barack Obama and his damned liberals are authority figures? Huh?

Parents who don’t comply face punishment ranging from fines to prison time. Germany’s highest appellate court ruled in November 2007 that, in severe cases, social services officials could remove children from their parents’ care.

So, wouldn’t it actually explain
more to say this is a free society’s dispute about WHICH authority
figures children will be taught to respect — Caesar’s or God’s, teachers, preachers, peers, the people, scientific inquiry, the natural or the supernatural — and which
ones they can be taught to disrespect or even defy?

6 04 2009
JJ

And remember the NC homeschool custody case? It now looks like by sending them to public school next year, it’s outright brainwashing (religious or not) that the judge means to protect the children from.

Tim Sandefur’s blog:
A comment at LGF brings to light this chilling brochure by the cult in question, which boasts of the fact that communicants are afraid of it and find its regimen strenuous and painful, and apparently admits to brainwashing members:
“At Sound Doctrine Church we also love each other enough to give up our own opinions and way of thinking. Other people often shamelessly label this as ‘brainwashing’ but, for us who know the power of the cross, it is simply the love of God at work in our minds and thoughts.”

So here’s why EDUCATION (not inculcation much less obedience training) matters so much to the health of human society. By that I mean not schooling with lesson plans and textbooks but real education, in which one learns to independently operate one’s own thinking, to examine and understand and connect big ideas a la Marion Brady’s slide show (don’t miss it if you haven’t seen it!) —

6 04 2009
JJ

Maybe this from the campaign fits here, about self-serving “individual” good through personal freedoms to reject social norms, when there is the greater good of “Country” (whether Germany, America, France, Israel, Pakistan or North Korea) at stake:

The more serious question raised by a slogan like “putting country first” is “ahead of what?” . . .

There are, of course, times when “putting country first” is an honorable thing to do. All of the people in the military who have made great sacrifices particularly those who have been injured and killed while serving their country, regardless of the wisdom of the war itself, have “put country first” and should be recognized for doing that. Clearly McCain’s individual heroism while a POW in Vietnam was a similar case of “putting country first”.

In civilian life, however, the notion of “putting country first” is somewhat more troubling. To a great extent, the whole point of the USA, and the source of much of its greatness, is that we don’t put country first. We put individuals, social and group goods, and even specific national goals first but these are different than the abstract idea of “putting country first”.

If we were to, as a society, put country first, who would define what “country” is or what putting it “first” might mean. . . this opens the door for a style of governance that would likely be intolerant of dissent and would accuse all dissenters of not “putting country first”.

We saw where this approach got us during the last eight years.
Perhaps all of us, particularly the country McCain seeks to put first, would be better served by putting rational decision making, a better understanding of the world, or the rule of law first.

The notion of “putting country first” also suggests the presence of a greater good, or that we should all be working for the glory of our country above all individual desires and needs.

The strength of American style democracy is that it is not about seeking greater goods, but about individuals seeking to pursue their own goals within the context of freedom, equality and rule of law.

. . .While patriotism and sacrifice are values that are central to good governance, democracy and to what has made our country great, “putting country first” has historically been the approach not of those who would celebrate the individual’s right to “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” as our founding fathers put it, but of those who would take these things away in the name of an abstract idea like “country”.

6 04 2009
JJ

Something I read this week that’s informing my thinking on such questions :
The End of Christian America

7 04 2009
Crimson Wife

Back before I had kids, I would’ve looked at the parents allowing their daughter to dress in her Halloween kitty costume and had a similar (though milder) reaction as Cassy did. “You’ve got to be freaking kidding me….These are a bunch of lazy parents who just can’t work up the effort to actually parent their spoiled rotten children.”

Then I had my own children and suddenly got a LOT more sympathy for other parents. You quickly learn to pick your battles and not to sweat the small stuff.

Last week my 3 year old insisted on wearing his rain boots even though it was sunny out. He could not be persuaded to take them off. Now I had a decision to make- was it worth forcing him to obey my desire for him not to wear the boots? In this case, the answer was “no”. We were just going to the grocery store so it really didn’t matter what footwear he had on.

But when he did not want to hold my hand in the parking lot, I forced him to do so even though that made him angry. I did explain to him why I was doing so but he didn’t have a choice in the matter. Like it or not, he needed to hold my hand in order to keep him safe from the cars.

I’d be willing to bet if one were to show the post to a future Cassy after she’s become a mom, she’d just laugh!

7 04 2009
writestuff444

And there is the rub…perhaps future Cassy will have developed some sense of respect, of compassion, of the need to see several sides of an issue, instead of uni-lateral destruction of everything she finds fault with. I think it is this for me that highlights the basic difference between Conser. and Lib. viewpoints and all of us who fall somewhere between the opposing poles.., Extreme conserv. see everything as right and wrong, black and right, win and or lose, etc, Extreme liberals see everything as let’s all win, let’s give everybody a chance, let’s never fight, etc. (I’m exaggerating here! :)) And somewhere for every issue, including all those discussed in JJ”s post, is the necessary answer, somewhere along that spectrum of good parenting, bad parenting is parenting that works for that family, that instance. I for one, see that CW has it right on parenting. Five kids taught me to pick my battles.

Let’s see, safe sex versus abstince…We came out on the side of saying and modeling..Just say no until you’re out of high school. It truly was a rule, and one that all of our kids understood as being necessary for their future well being. Lots of discussion and talk about why it was a firm rule, and they bought in to it, because of those discussions and talk.

And yes, they also knew that if…they broke the rule..they could come to us…talk to us about it..and we would then figure out a new rule for their future sexual behavior..which obviously would have included safe sex..

To me it’s the same as CW posted. I allowed lots of liberality on some issues, music choices, bedtimes, etc. etc. but on things like holding my hand on a busy street when you’re three, and no sex until you’re out of high school or much older…then yeah…some rules were needed. But then that’s my family, our lives..It worked for us.

What Cassy will choose or what Sarah Palin obviously screwed up with..Hmm. I am now thinking that Sarah Palin must like drama and battles. (said with tongue in cheek) And has that “my family is so much more important than your family”…when you think of her sister and the trooper problems, and the daughter and the boyfriend problems..and all those other family problems. Families are rather messy, aren’t they? “) especially on a national stage…that you chose for the drama to be played out on…

7 04 2009
Nance Confer

Maybe that’s part of the problem, the reason Palin rubs so many people the wrong way. Her problems are not that special or unusual. She’s doing a lot that is wrong but nothing that is even worthy of a visit to Oprah.

Perhaps part of her sin is not being entertaining enough. 🙂

Nance

7 04 2009
JJ

“Morning Joe” discussed Sarah Palin with (conservative) Tucker Carlson and (liberal) Tina Brown today. Host Mika B. has been a staunch defender of Palin personally, as a woman and mom unfairly portrayed by a hostile media, at least until now.

Tucker Carlson marveled at how profligately Palin is “squandering her political capital.”
Tina Brown and Mika B. agreed she’d showcased her great natural giflts in her convention speech, but now she’s becoming a tragically bad joke and it’s her own doing, not some liberal or media conspiracy against her. Someone said she was getting terrible advice, that whoever thought it was a good idea to publicly attack the young man in that statement, should be fired.

7 04 2009
JJ

Chuckling at the whole conversation about kids and their quirky costuming! FavD was a big hat wearer even as a baby, including a pink princess confection outside in the dirt, topped by a yellow plastic sandbucket because no fashion option was available. I have a photo but it’s not scanned into my pictures — it was circa 1992. 🙂

But I think Young Son has his sister and maybe all of you all beat — we are expecting delivery any day of THIS, in olive drab.

(See award-winning mock commercials here. Click on the top of the list to play a good one: “If it’s not Utilikilts”)

I have no doubt he’ll wear it on his walks around the neighborhood every afternoon, always with his signature olive-drab fedora and often topped by his full-length olive-drab LOTR/Ranger’s Apprentice hooded cloak . . .

7 04 2009
JJ

The wordpress dot com comment “edit” function is still down, sorry. Try this for mock commercials.

8 04 2009
TMQ

I’m so glad that there were others who agreed with my point of view with respect to this article. Thank you. Sometimes it nice to be validated. 🙂

9 04 2009
NanceConfer

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123914405198998725.html

TMQ wrote about this story. I found it a pretty depressing solution to the problem with the sliver of light that the schools seem to realize they might be part of the cause.

Nance

9 04 2009
JJ

This deserves its own post, or three!
We have a whole category here for “Play” btw, I can dig up some of the earlier links for those interested in more.

It occurred to me Daryl’s newspaper blogging about school taser use ought to get a look at this kind of research. It’s a completely different perspective to that rigor-accountability-law enforcement-punishment mentality, that too many Americans (never mind Germans) still harbor.

It also makes me think of our discussion about labor-management relations and how to improve them. Would card check as “employee choice” do the trick? Who cares, if we could just make the whole environment healthier for everyone without bothering to negotiate it among the powerbrokers? More play at work! 😉

But now, some novel teaching programs are showing great promise in solving the behavior problems, and perhaps in reducing ADD diagnoses.

By giving children more time for dramatic or pretend play, and by building into the school day more lessons in self control, researchers are seeing both big reductions in bad behavior, and gains in cognitive skills. The findings have value for well-behaved children too; research shows behavior problems among a few children tend to drag down other kids’ conduct.

9 04 2009
10 04 2009
Crimson Wife

This is why I get so frustrated with people who tell me that I should just “afterschool” my DD if I’m not satisfied that the local school would meet her academic needs. So she’s supposed to sit for 6 hours in school and then come home to another couple of hours of me teaching her? When would she have any time to play?

If I’m going to have to teach her at home anyways, then why bother enrolling her in school at all? I’d rather homeschool in the mornings & free up the rest of her day for other pursuits.

10 04 2009
JJ

Not to mention that those six hours of not-play every day, over time will have a huge impact on her experience of “learning” and whether she does it for its own sake or as a chore to obey adults. You can’t erase much less counteract that, by what you do the rest of the time. It does indeed shape her general psyche, who she will be and how she is in the world. How she will parent your grandchildren, too . . .

See Hell is Not Working:

In a newly posted essay, Mac co-inventor Paul Graham writes:

“By the time they reach an age to think about what they’d like to do, most kids have been thoroughly misled about the idea of loving one’s work. School has trained them to regard work as an unpleasant duty. . .If you think something’s supposed to hurt, you’re less likely to notice if you’re doing it wrong.”

These are the staples in my idea pantry. Learning is fun, not work. Schooling is work, not education. Our 15-year-old [now 19] has never been to school, precisely because I believe school screws up such lessons as these, and all the hapless folks who receive them.

10 04 2009
Nance Confer

Exactly, CW!

And these are 4 and 5-year-old kids. Being manipulated into accepting this drudgery in the guise of “play.” It’s not real play — where kids move freely within the game as their imaginations dictate. It’s teacher-directed play to make the teacher’s day easier.

Reminds me of the “art” projects where everybody’s snowman ends up looking precisely the same.

Gag!

Nance

10 04 2009
JJ

You’re both right of course. I jumped right off from it, into REAL play stories and didn’t stop to disclaim this pale, puny schoolish version, sorry.

10 04 2009
Nance Confer

That’s OK. 🙂 Have to include a good rant when I can, though.

Nance

10 04 2009
JJ

😀

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